If we accept, and this comes from Krishnamacharya and Pattabhi Jois themselves, that the Advanced asana were intended for demonstration purposes....., should we be practicing such advanced asana daily..., or at least four days a week.... and practicing in this way over decades. This isn't intended as a criticism of Ashtanga vinyasa (there are many advanced postures in Vinyasa Krama that we are encouraged to try), I find great value in practicing the same asana daily,, it's a wonderful way to build discipline, but given the rise in the number of practitioners and the number who have moved on to advanced asana and the number of 'superstars' shilling their Advanced practice to put seats on mats in workshops and sell product, is this wise. The occasional demonstration of the more extreme asana of the Advanced series, practiced by an experienced practitioner may do no lasting harm but practicing those 'demonstration intended' asana, day in day out, over decades may be a different matter.
To reframe the question.
Should we, should anyone, be practicing Advanced asana (almost ) daily and over decades, at what point should we accept the physical changes in our bodies, in our bone mass, chemical make up and adapt our practice accordingly?
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This post relates to a video I put up on fb. I was teasing a friend about Vatyanasana and posted an old video of mine of jumping straight into the asana.
Note: My friend Francesca has translated this post into Italian HERE
https://kalyavinyasa.blogspot.jp/2017/03/le-eta-dello-yoga-la-pratica-degli.html?spref=fb
Also, a new permanent page on Ashtanga/Yoga and Ageing at the top of the blog with intros and links to earlier posts.
http://grimmly2007.blogspot.jp/p/ahtangayoga-and-ageing.html
Also, a new permanent page on Ashtanga/Yoga and Ageing at the top of the blog with intros and links to earlier posts.
http://grimmly2007.blogspot.jp/p/ahtangayoga-and-ageing.html
The video itself came about from seeing a new edit of the Krishnamacharya, his family and BKS Iyengar demonstrating asana in the 1938 Mysore documentary footage (see the appendix for that old post and video). Here's my fb comment...
"The things Krishnamacharya used to teach those boys of the Mysore palace, no doubt for all the demonstrations they used to do. As with many postures and transitions (in the Advanced series for example, supposedly intended for demonstration only), practicing them daily would probably be too hard on the knees, the joints, other than for the occasional demonstration which might be acceptable with enough training and preparation. Unfortunately these days, third (Ashtanga series) is the new second and fourth is the new third, many students are now practicing advanced postures daily, I wonder if this is wise."
This has been playing on my mind.
Often (mostly) on this blog, I'll throw a post up to see if I still agree with it by the end of the day, week...., year. I have a strong temptation to delete the first seven years or so of the blog and no doubt, five years from now, I'll have the temptation to delete the rest of it as well but it is what it is, a document perhaps of shifting view of MY daily practice.
A blog it's just a blog.
So this is an idea that I'm throwing up here to mull over.
A daily, Primary series practice is one thing perhaps ( and even that includes some postures that Krishnamacharya originally tagged as Intermediate (EG. Marichiyasana D), as did Jois (re uttihita parsvakonasana B), as well as perhaps some of the gentle 'back stretches from 2nd series but what of many of the more challenging postures particularly those in Advanced A and B ( 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th).?
So this is how I understand it plays out in Ashtanga these days.
You begin to learn Primary. Perhaps for the first class or two (or eight ) you only do the Suryanamaskars, maybe some of the standing postures before you begin to add on more Primary postures.
Perhaps you will be held at Marichiyasa D for some time..., some might be held there for all eternity. Personally, these days (contra to many of my earlier posts), I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing and will myself, more often than not, only practice half the Primary series, but this is because I like to practice slowly and a full series would take me all morning. I want time for my pranayama practice, for a Sit.... as well as to do the ironing.
Eventually we might complete Primary and begin to add on 2nd series, the Intermediate asana series. Again we may get held up at kapo for a few lifetimes and a few more at karandavasana.
It's after Karandavasana I think that you then tend to switch to working on second series daily with Primary only practiced on Friday, so five days of Intermediate asana,. one of Primary
Likewise, on completing the Intermediate series, we begin to add on Third series (Advanced series asana) until finally switching to just 3rd for four days a week, Primary and Intermediate asana practiced one day each..... and so it goes on.
If you've gone so far as to switch to fourth series you will now be practicing fourth series three days a week, 3rd, once, 2nd, once and Primary series once.
So four days of Advanced asana, one day each of Intermediate Primary asana
There are some slight differences between how the different senior teachers go about the above and personally I don't accept any one authority for 'the method'. Sharath's approach is interesting but so too is Manju's, Saraswati's and other earlier approaches maintained by the first teachers to practice with Pattabhi Jois, each with their different idiosyncrasies, depending on which years they first learned the practice and adapted it to their own teaching environment. I don't even accept Pattabhi Jois himself as an authority, which Pattabhi Jois would you choose, the author of Yoga Mala or the ageing teacher faced with hundreds of students. Nor do I accept Krishnamacharya as an authority for that matter. My problem of course is with the word 'authority', it's enough to reflect on the different approaches to practice and over time, with experience, find which approach best suits you personally.
If we accept, and this comes from Krishnamacharya and Pattabhi Jois themselves, that the Advanced asana were intended for demonstration purposes....., should we be practicing such advanced asana daily..., or at least four days a week.... and practicing in this way over decades. This isn't intended as a criticism of Ashtanga vinyasa (there are many advanced postures in Vinyasa Krama that we are encouraged to try), I find great value in practicing the same asana daily, it's a wonderful way to build discipline, but given the rise in the number of practitioners and the number who have moved on to advanced asana and the number of 'superstars' shilling their Advanced practice to put seats on mats in workshops and sell product, is this wise? The occasional demonstration of the more extreme asana of the Advanced series, practiced by an experienced practitioner may do no lasting harm perhaps but practicing those 'demonstration' intended asana, day in day out, over decades may be a different matter.
If you are young, and relatively flexible and with a particular body/sinew/bone structure type, starting practice at Uni, you could end up working on 3rd series at say twenty-five and then continue practicing advanced series asana daily for the next twenty to thirty years.
That's an extreme but perhaps you started Ashtanga in your late twenties ended up at third series in your mid thirties, you could be practicing advanced series asana for ten, fifteen years before you decide enough is enough and start dropping asana and series.
I happened to be forty-three when I started. After completing Primary I moved pretty quickly through Advanced A and all but a couple of postures of B, the photos on the Krishnamacharya proficient asana list below were taken I think three years after I started. Thankfully around this time I began to practice Vinyasa krama with Ramaswami ( mainly because his book contained so many asana) and encountered a slower approach to practice. On studying and practicing with Pattabhi Jois' teacher Krishnamacharya's texts, I slowed my practice right down, these day's I mostly just practice the first half of Primary and occasionally the first half of Intermediate series.
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| Krishnamacharya7s Yogasangalu now available for free download for personal study from here http://tinyurl.com/z9jy7cphttp://tinyurl.com/z9jy7cp |
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| Krishnamacharya7s Yogasangalu now available for free download for personal study from here http://tinyurl.com/z9jy7cphttp://tinyurl.com/z9jy7cp |
Personally, I think now, I shouldn't have been practicing half of the above asana at that point but I was getting older and thought at the time it was a case of now or never plus I was amazed and a little intoxicated with what I found my body able to do. I wince when I see early video of Pattabhi Jois himself muscling his students into Advanced postures, who perhaps shouldn't even have been practicing 2nd.
To reframe the question.
Should we, should anyone, be practicing Advanced asana (almost ) daily and over decades, at what point should we accept the physical changes in our bodies, in our bone mass, chemical make up and adapt our practice accordingly?
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A couple of old videos of exploring advanced asana from 2011
I should point out that I'm a home practitioner (notice the '....at home' in the blog title) and apart from three months with Kristina in Rethymno, Crete ( highly recommended) back in 2014, which included a couple of short TT's with Manju and a a month with Ramaswami in LA (Vinyasa Krama TT) I7ve always explored my practice alone at home. I started with books and DVD in 2007, the videos below exploring Advanced B are from 2011. I've never had any Ashtanga interviews other than a bruised toe but then shortly after these videos I become interested in exploring a slower practice with longer stays and pretty much lost interest with more advanced asana, primary asana seemed quite sufficient. had I gone to a teacher more, depending on the shala, I might have been held back more or encouraged beyond my own (perhaps limited) sense of caution and common sense.
A thought on these videos:
I'm reminded of the old cybershala, how we would bounce ideas and posts around the blogs, exploring different postures together, sharing hints tips, picking up on topics and running with them. Our videos tended to be mostly 'work in progress'. Apart from going a little deeper in kapotasana, once we got the basics of a posture I think we pretty much tended to lose interest in videoing it, there are few ( if any ) fancy locations and beautiful examples of asana from those years (except perhaps Laruga back before she was teaching, her home practice an inspiration), we were sharing amongst friends rather than promoting ourselves, trying to catch the moment a posture or transition just clicked into place (actually that's probably not completely true, I'm sure there were periods where our ego got the better of us, but on the whole, on the whole). I started this particular blog as a response to the perfect Ashtanga series I saw on you tube, Lino Miele, John Scot. David Swenson, Richard freeman, mark Darby..., their jump throughs were too perfect, so far from my own attempts, I wanted to catch the moment my efforts first bore fruit, so we could see what it was that made the difference, likewise with kapotasana, karandavasana, dropping back, as well as these later forays into advanced series asana.
Appendix 1.
The full 45 minute Krishnamacharya (and Iyengar) 1938 silent Newsreel plus , jumping in and out of Vatyanasana.
Nice to sees new version of this in full (Thank you Tom and Youtube for allowing longer videos, up untill now it's been in five sections). Are there some bits that I don't remember from the chopped up version? Iyenger jumping straight into Vatyanasana for example at 29:09, at first I thought he was going for lotus but no.
Got to try that, the things Krishnamacharya used to teach those boys, no doubt for all the demonstrations they used to do. As with many postures and transitions (in the Advanced series for example, supposedly intended for demonstration only), practicing them daily would probably be too hard on the knees, joints but for the occasional demonstration, acceptable perhaps with enough training and preparation. Unfortunately these days, third is the new second and fourth the new third, many students are now practicing advanced postures daily, I wonder if this is wise.
Had to give it go, first side is just about OK but the second side a struggle, don't manage to get the foot high enough into the groin, cute party trick though, nice play a bit after such a heavy practice this morning.
This is a 'freestyle' approach to Vatayanasana As opposed to this one which is closer to the Ashtanga approach 'Working on getting my vatyanasana back'.
Should also add that it's perhaps something to think twice about before trying at home as your messing with your knees. I've spent quite some time playing with the hands free getting into lotus and hop to lotus jump through,
UPDATE
And on a similar theme, the jump in and out of padmasana
Got to try that, the things Krishnamacharya used to teach those boys, no doubt for all the demonstrations they used to do. As with many postures and transitions (in the Advanced series for example, supposedly intended for demonstration only), practicing them daily would probably be too hard on the knees, joints but for the occasional demonstration, acceptable perhaps with enough training and preparation. Unfortunately these days, third is the new second and fourth the new third, many students are now practicing advanced postures daily, I wonder if this is wise.
Enjoy
Had to give it go, first side is just about OK but the second side a struggle, don't manage to get the foot high enough into the groin, cute party trick though, nice play a bit after such a heavy practice this morning.
Should also add that it's perhaps something to think twice about before trying at home as your messing with your knees. I've spent quite some time playing with the hands free getting into lotus and hop to lotus jump through,
UPDATE
And on a similar theme, the jump in and out of padmasana
Krishnamacharya practicing at 84
What does practice look like after 70 years?
Krishnamacharya's Yogasanagalu ( Link to translation) was originally published in 1942, these photos are from the 3rd edition 1972
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Or perhaps practice after 70 years just looks like this...
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| from Breath of Gods |
See the follow up post here
Krishnamacharya seems to have practiced along with his students.
Yesterday I posted 120 odd pictures of Krishnamacharya demonstrating asana from the 3rd edition of his second book Yogasanagalu, he was 84 at the time. The pictures were remarkable, how did he manage to stay that strong, that flexible, his eldest son Desikachar gives us a clue,
".....Of course, he was also doing Āsana for three to four hours daily in addition to his Prāṇāyāma. His practice was extremely rigorous and that may account for his being able to handle these large quantities of spicy and sweet foods.”
and the third post in this series
APPENDIX 3
You may have no problems at all up to the age of fifty or sixty. After that, the real problem arises when the tissues of the body do not bear the load. What I practise now is more difficult than what I did when I was young or struggled to learn. Though today, I don’t consider those practices as very hard although I practised ten hours a day then. Today, it is a big fight between the body and the mind. The body says, “I can’t do it.” The mind says, “Do not force me.” BKS Iyengar
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"Most people want to take joy without suffering, I'll take both.
See how far suffering takes me" BKS Iyengar Light on Life.
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We may not attain samadhi but perhaps the work we do in exploring the limbs of Ashtanga practice may prepare us somewhat for the suffering and hardship that awaits us. Few if any manage to avoid suffering completely. We do not seek pain or suffering but when it can not be avoided, reduced , deflected, we must be prepared perhaps to face it unflinchingly with dignity and forbearance and learn too from this pervasive aspect of life what it can teach us.
Below is perhaps the most affecting article I've read on yoga, I'm tempted to print it out, frame it, and put it on the wall of the home shala. I've also included some notes on Iyengar's passing and a couple more articles, titled 'Seeing is believing' on BKS Iyengar practicing in his 80s.
At 92 years of age BKS Iyengar continued to practise yoga for several hours each day. Here he describes how his practice changed with age and offers advice to students on yoga in later life.
You may have no problems at all up to the age of fifty or sixty. After that, the real problem arises when the tissues of the body do not bear the load. What I practise now is more difficult than what I did when I was young or struggled to learn. Though today, I don’t consider those practices as very hard although I practised ten hours a day then. Today, it is a big fight between the body and the mind. The body says, “I can’t do it.” The mind says, “Do not force me.”
Will over matter
Believe me, after a certain age, to practise āsana and prānāyāma is going to be very hard. I am doing it because of this reason only. The body ages. It descends towards deterioration. The rate of catabolism increases more than anabolism. The bones become brittle. The blood vessels get hardened. All these are known facts. I do not want to fall prey to these. If I surrender to the will of the body, then I am no more a yogic practitioner. When I practise, I watch how to stop this deteriorating process. That is the will over matter.
Then you say, “Iyengar doesn’t need anything because he has practised earlier”. But that is not the right way of thinking. In fact, I see how at this age I need to practise. I have to avoid the constriction of the sternum. I have to see how the diaphragm remains free. If I look at the possible deteriorations and maintain my practice of āsana, then people say that I am a physical yogi.
Increased timings
Often people think that at the old age they should do dhyāna (meditation) or japa (repetition of mantras) instead of āsana and prānāyāma practice. I am not that type of a sādhaka (practioner) to take shelter under the garb of old age. I will not run away from my practice because of the fear complex of old age. I do meditation in each āsana as in each āsana I see God who is infinite and beyond measure. Because of age I have increased timings in my practices. Mind and body want to give way. I daily charge my body and mind to stand with will power so that I do not surrender to the weakness of my body and mind.
Having a good background of philosophy, practising yoga, I now continue life without depending on anyone. I have to stick to the philosophy of the body as I am already ingrained in the spiritual knowledge.
The steadiness of intelligence
The only difference between now and the early days is that in the early days I was like all other youngsters. I was tempted to do the āsana one after the other. Today, I stay in Dwi Pāda Viparīta Dandāsana or in Kapotāsana for quite a length of time. At this age I clearly understand the sūtra (Yoga Sutras, II.46), sthira (stable, firm) sukham (sweet, easy) āsanam (posture) in its total sense. Now, I see in each āsana, the perfect freshness and firmness of body, the alert, steadiness of intelligence and the sweet, benevolence of the self. I see whether I can enjoy sthira and sukha in a long stay in Kapotāsana. Can I be sthira and sukha in Dwi Pāda Viparīta Dandāsana?
Sometimes I do ten minutes Pārsva Śīrșāsana, on each side. These are difficult āsanas. Nobody does the advanced or complicated āsana at this age. Nobody takes the risk of doing and staying in these āsana as it requires courage. To do and maintain an āsana when the muscles and nerves tremor and the loose joints shake, heart beats faster, it is not an easy thing. I am not that type of a person to sit in Padmāsana and say, “I am comfortable.” If you are doing yoga, you realise the difficulties as one ages. So, my advice to all of you is that as yoga frees one from the afflictions of actions, afflictions come in chains in old age. Therefore maintain and sustain what you have learnt and do to keep it up then.
Courage and faith
This needs not only will power but also courage and faith. By the proper chemistry of will power and courage along with discrimination, the yogic practices generate the energy in the nerve cells as you stay in those difficult āsanas for a long time with comfort. At this age I learn lots of things. It is the wisdom that comes at this age. I have not lost this freshness of intelligence.
When you do Pārsva Śīrșāsana, sometimes you may not know where the legs are, where the shoulders are, where the load is. For an aging person like me, it is more difficult to have the sensitivity; yet, I have not lost it. Every now and then I come back to the right position in case I deviate from my limbs or mind. I educate the cells that they have to remain where I want them. I try for sthira sukham āsanam in these difficult āsanas. It is easy to be sthira and have sukham in the simple āsana.
I regularly practise prānāyāma and dhyāna in Padmāsana. You do not see me early in the mornings to know what I do. You only see me practising āsana in the hall, but my approach is the same in prānāyāma, dhārāna and dhyāna. To be honest, this is ethics.
Tatah klesha karma nivrttih (YogaSutras, IV.30). With the end of afflicted oriented actions, see that the afflictions do not enter the system or you in old age.
Dipika, 2011
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Do follow the link (click the article title) and check out the website, the excellent BLOG (http://iyi.org.uk/category/blog/) and the Resource page (https://iyengaryoga.org.uk/resources/articles/) that has amongst much else all the Iyengar Yoga News Magazine mentioned above to view and download
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Two years ago I woke up to hear that BKS Iyengar had passed away. I was in Rethymno, Crete at the time, practicing Ashtanga at Kristina Karitinou's shala for three months. I mentioned to Kristina that the great man had passed and she informed the rest of the class and dedicated the mornings practice to his memory. At the end of my practice I quietly went out into the courtyard behind the shala and dropped back a 108 times just as I had once seen Iyengar do on perhaps his 80th birthday. It was only the second time I had attempted so many dropbacks (see this post) and I had to split it into four groups with a brief pause between each. At the time I wasn't exactly sure why I was doing it, wished after the first batch I hadn't started, and wondered why I was so moved by his passing, I was an 'Ashtangi 'after all, I'd never been to an Iyengar class, still haven't..... reading this article now I wish now I had done that 108 twice.
Iyengar dropping back again and again and again 42 seconds into the movie below
On a workshop I was presenting at Stillpoint Yoga in London a few months later an Iyengar teacher who reads my blog occasionally sent me, via his student who was attending my workshop, some pages on Iyengar's late practice (from Iyengar Yoga News. Some sample pages below, the magazines are now available to view and download at the links).
The practice was stunning, bemusing even, long long stays one after another, five minutes here, ten, fifteen minutes there, asana after asana, what possessed the man...... the article above goes someway perhaps to explaining but only someway. I held off posting those pages at the time but now I see they are readily available online.
The practice was stunning, bemusing even, long long stays one after another, five minutes here, ten, fifteen minutes there, asana after asana, what possessed the man...... the article above goes someway perhaps to explaining but only someway. I held off posting those pages at the time but now I see they are readily available online.
See Part one of Inyengar's practice on p36 of issue 3
Part two on p 33 of issue 4
Asana practice often gets a bad wrap these days, "That's not yoga", they say. 'They' see the play perhaps, the promotional asana that can, at times, distract us too from our work, we can allow ourselves some distraction perhaps if we then rejoin the struggle with ever more commitment.
It is work, that daily discipline that characterises practice as we understand it.Lineage is of no importance other than to cling to an illusion of authority, another distraction, a support perhaps in the beginning, at some point it may become a hinderance to enquiry and what else is yoga. Sincere, committed practice, ideally daily, in whatever form it takes, moving or static, a mix of the two. Practiced with resolve it forges the will, the discipline required of the other limbs it leads us towards.
There is a line from Iyengar's Light on Life that came back to me looking at these pictures...,
"Most people want to take joy without suffering, I'll take both.
See how far suffering takes me"
Was Svātmārāma thus, Matsyendrasana, in their uncompromising enquiry?
(When) will we see his like again?
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Note. The approach to Ashtanga I personally take now, at 53, is outlined in my Proficient Primary page http://grimmly2007.blogspot.jp/p/proficient-primary-project.html
Links
Do follow the link (click the article title) and check out the website, the excellent BLOG (http://iyi.org.uk/category/blog/) and the Resource page (https://iyengaryoga.org.uk/resources/articles/) that has amongst much else all the Iyengar Yoga News Magazine mentioned above to view and download.
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| https://www.amazon.com/Light-Life-Journey-Wholeness-Ultimate/dp/1594865248 |
Iyengar yoga Institute UK
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